Saturday, August 29, 2009

Gender identity forum in Lawrence

Lawrence is currently considering adding gender identity to its nondiscrimination ordinance and today the City's human rights commission held a public forum to discuss the issue.

I went as part of a group of people representing different aspects of the transgender spectrum. Most of the people there were supporters adding of gender identity. The committee seemed focused at first about protecting people that were going to transition or had transitioned.

But I and others pointed out the issue is a bit more complex than that. For instance, there are people such as myself who don't fit the gender binary. Are we not to be protected against loss of job? Not to be protected against discrimination in housing?

The sticky wicket in at least one of the commission members minds seemed to be the issue of locker rooms, gyms and bathrooms. What if a man goes in to the woman's bathroom? Well first of all. if some one is transitioned entirely, likely you wouldn't spot them unless you have some thing about carefully scrutinizing the other people in the rest room or locker room. Even some one as myself-strongly transgendered but not planning on transitioning would probably be hard to spot, well OK in a rest room- and we certainly wouldn't go into an all woman's facility; the genitals don't match.

Not only that-quite frankly where ever possible I look either for unisex bathrooms or places with single stalls and a locking door, but on occasion I have gone into a crowded woman's room if absolutely have to. Go in, do my thing sitting down like a genetic woman, wash hands, check hair and leave.

One of the speakers at the forum was a lesbian whom I suppose might be construed as mannish or at least androgyne in appearance. She related how she was harassed by a woman in the women's rooms for being in the wrong rest room. Well I know, having done it accidentally, you don't go into a men's room dressed en femme because there is a fantasy about umm making it with a transgendered or transsexual person and this one man was not going to take no for an answer. I was concerned enough that I had a male friend in the group I was with, walk me to my car when I was ready to leave just in case.

So when it comes to rest rooms creeps are creeps even if they are in the "right" rest room.

As for showers and places where there is nudity involved, those are sex segregated places, and a transgendered person in the middle of transitioning or some one such as myself who's not transitioning can be excluded pretty easily I would think.

One speaker brought up work place issues and the example of a construction worker whose transitioning complaining because she can't wear high heels to do some sort of construction job. Well it is already settled law that workplaces have the right to enforce work related equipment rules. Another speaker felt that it might be difficult to pass a law that is precise enough to be enforceable, and granted courts do throw out laws because of vagueness to the point of unenforceability but it seems there you are trying to prohibit something (Like loud parties).

Here is a relevant counter example. There are a number of definitions of religion-and yet we don't say well that's too vague to enforce. Who would you exclude? Atheists? Granted some on the religious right might want to do that but in our society we define these classes of protected people in the broadest way possible.

I hope seeing a broad spectrum of transgendered people gave the committee a little bit more to go on. They hope to have a recommendation ready by November and a forum related to that before taking something to the City Commission. That is probably where the real opposition will emerge and all kinds of red herrings and bizarre hypotheticals will just pop from the sky.

Link to LJWORLD article.

Other links from The Force:

http://theforcethat.blogspot.com/2009/03/proposal-in-lawrence.html

Now It's Showers!

Sex in Humans: It's a delicate balance

Secrets of Bug Person Exposed!

The Tyranny of the Dichotomous Mind

10 comments:

Anonymous said...

hi..

l would feel that it would be harder on someone who has transtion and who are transtioned,if crossdreserers , and men who dress for kicks feel that they they would be treated the same,,there is a big differnce in this..l feel it should be for girls who are in transtion or who have transtion...crossdressers is a entire differnt subject,,,they want to stay and be men....the transtion women wants to be female..

Paul D. said...

Well,

I agree in part but as I pointed out there are people who might want to transition but can't for one reason or another, should they be left out?

With respect to cross dressers many of them have various degrees of gender conflict as well.

Now granted there are some who dress for kicks and that is it, but do you think such a person should loose their job or be denied housing because of this?

Just curious.

Regards,

P

Anonymous said...

Perhaps the biggest challenge is to explain non-transitioning TG folks to the general public: I dare say most people assume it is strictly a sexual turn on.

I know that is not the case, but I can't say I really understand what their motivation is. To date I have seen exactly ONE story which has started giving me a handle on what might be going on in their minds versus dozens, perhaps hundreds illuminating TS folks.

That story was at: http://stardustr.us/take_me_out_to_the_old_ball_game The part illuminating the cross dresser's experience is not 'till the last few pages.

Anonymous said...

hi again

like l said it should for girls in transtion and who have gone hormone therapy...no offense to crossdressers,but if you are not in transtion or on HRT u should not be allowed to use the same as the transtion women,,you are still men yet,,,,maybe they can have special restrooms and lockers for the crossdresser male.

Anonymous said...

hi there again..

l forgot to answer your last question there,,,
no one should lose there job beacause they wish to crossdress..if they dress for fun or for kicks ...

Paul D. said...

Thanks anonymous,

The issue with this sort of non discrimination ordinance is the big stuff-non discrimination in jobs , housing, public accommodations. We have plenty of precedent in law regarding places like locker rooms etc so I don't see where any reasonable person could demand that non transitioning say m to f's should have access to these facilities.

Restrooms (as opposed to lockers) as an issue is overblown. Personally I try to look for places that have unisex or single stall bathrooms that lock and if I know I am going to be in situation where I would need to use a woman's room I am going to really make sure I can blend in.

Also I have known lots of cross dressers and some are way over the top, but most I see here do a pretty good job of blending. From that it is hard to discern motivation.

I'v emet some that are motivated sexually but that is a whole different animal.

Anonymous said...

hi...

l was thinking about the locker rooms in a gym..if that was talked about in the meeting any...should a pre op be allowed to use the same womens locker room,,say if they are on HRT and in transtion..l assume a post op would be able to,,was this talked about at the meeting? lets say at the YWCA for an example,,should they be allowed to go in and use a private area in a stall..or should they have to use the mens side..l know this has gone a little behond bathroom issues but is a major issue,,,,

Paul D. said...

As a matter of fact the locker room issue was discussed and there where nudity is involved then some one in transition say from m to f would not use the f locker room.

I guess my thought is that you can't have everything equal so go for the big stuff-job protection, non discrimination in housing and general public accommodation.

So no, a pre-op or non op should not expect to be in a shower/locker room where nakedness is an issue. At least that is my sense of where this is going.

Anonymous said...

hi...
l was a member of the YWCA for awhile and l am a pre op on HRT,,they said l could use the special needs locker room, which was mostly for the handicap,,anyway all the effort l put into being passing was just washed away and it was a way to out myself to everyone,l wish there was a way to use the womens locker room in a private area behind curtains where one could not be seen,, after that people started calling me him, he, and sir
anyway it hurt so bad I had to quit to get away from the pain...

Paul D. said...

I know at least some YWCA's are trying to address this issue, but unfortunately your experience is probably all too common.